I was told about a post, that literally made me fall out of my chair laughing so hard. Apparently on SF, Ken H stated that he made the same power with his 3.4stroker that Saad made with his 3.0 liter on the dyno in vegas, year before last. This is a perfect example of someone not looking at the curve! Kens car did make the peak number....on a spike...his 1100hp was there and gone in less than a 500rpm window, however Saad carried 1100hp over 3k rpms. The dyno curves weren't even comparable. When you get spikes on the dyno, it artificially accelerates the rollers, and on a dynojet, the numbers are generated by calculating time between pulses from a sensor mounted on the rotating shaft. The calculation is pretty straight forward...time to accelerate a known mass. Think of it like a gear change during a dyno pull with an automatic car. I have seen 650rwhp on a bpu gear change on the dyno!!! It amazes me that anyone would actually compare peak numbers in such a case!

Who here wouldn't take 1100hp from 1krpm to 9krpm over 1400 for just 500 rpm if you could get it????

ok, i understand the point made and it seems valid, but what exactly are trying to argue? or is this just a statement about powerbands that most people already knew?

ok, i understand the point made and it seems valid, but what exactly are trying to argue? or is this just a statement about powerbands that most people already knew?

Just an observation, I wouldn't assume the "most people" already knew it...however.

Ken got the trophy and that's all that matters!!

HKS-FCON obviously rules!

Who here wouldn't take 1100hp from 1krpm to 9krpm over 1400 for just 500 rpm if you could get it????


Maybe somebody should sponsor an "Area Under the Curve" trophy.

I'd like to see the dyno that shows 1100hp from 1k to 9k. Is there one somewhere to see that?

Ken got the trophy and that's all that matters!!

HKS-FCON obviously rules!

Ummmmm....No! The trophy might mean something to someone like you....who claims to have an 8 second supra...

Kens car previously made close to 1100? I remember reading he made 1072 IIRC, before this shootout.
I really don't get the argument here.
Secondly, Ken doesn't brag, doesn't act like a two year old, isn't narcisistic or egomanical. His car is probably the nicest Supra ever built if you look at every nook and cranny. Everything was done to his personal satisfaction , not built for bragging rights that I know of. Most of us logical thinkers believe a car is built to make the owner happy not the general public unless its to promote a shop, business or EGO in some cases.
The power saads car makes hasn't even come close to being fully realized for which it was built. Nobody was saying Saads car isn't a powerhouse and Ken never bragged about his cars accomplishments.
This is a sad diatribe. Most of us, believe it or not, understand what a dyno curve is and can fully understand a graph. Ken is proud of his car and I'm sure meant no harm or disrespect. He is a class act through and through...of course he is prideful who wouldn't be ........puhlease.

get some skin yours is thin...... :cry:

This seems like something a 12yo stupid newbie would start, not a "moderator".

I'm sure Kens car is nice...I'm sure Ken is a nice guy....doesn't change the fact that the "same" isn't the "same". If anyone needs "skin" it's you guys, you think everything is about downplaying someones "accomplishments". I just call it like it is.

1BADSUPRA, You discuss HP so much and compare HP so much, but why not compare torque as well? "You cant have one without the...other...". I'd like to see a torque curve comparison of Saad and Ken.

I'd say Ken makes his torque at a lower RPM range, and his powerband is a much smoother transition of torque. Not to say he doesn't make torque up top, but it shouldn't be peaky or wavy. I like flat torque setups myself. Very drivable.

I would say Saad makes less torque at lower RPM, and his torque transition (slope) would be much more violent and have a higher torque peak.

I think I would have to drive both cars back to back to make any comparison at all. Too difficult to compare what ifs and maybes. Making power on a dyno really means nothing. Gearing, keeping the car in the powerband at all times [while racing] means much much more. You could have an engine that makes a peak of 1200HP and 1000TQ but at 3000RPM it makes 200HP and 250TQ and if somehow your gearing puts you at 3000 RPM ever, you are dead . Not to say this is going to happen in a Supra, but you get the idea. Once you get out of the powerband, might as well just be done.

Personally, I would wonder how easy it is to drive Saads vehicle. I would think on a roadcourse, or the street, a hard pedal mash could inevitably end up in too much torque, and tirespin. Not to say Kens car wont do the same, making 900+ or more torque, but with a flatter torque curve, I would think it would be easier to drive.

With all of that being said, both cars are serious monsters. Is a 3.4L versus 3.0L comparo fair? Of course not! But is racing supposed to be fair? Hell no! Best car wins.

Could Saad benefit from a 3.4L short block? Maybe. Maybe not. Have to install it to find out.

Is a 3.4L much more work than a 3.0L? Hell yes. So we hope Ken didn't waste all of that time to have a worse engine.

Ken built his car to keep himself happy. So did Saad. Hopefully both owners got what they wanted.

Kens car is surely aesthetically beautiful though. Only a handfull of widebodies grab my attention, and that is definitely one of them.

!

Who here wouldn't take 1100hp from 1krpm to 9krpm over 1400 for just 500 rpm if you could get it????

I think I'd rather have the reliable one, the one that doesn't break a driveline part at the track almost every run, and the one where the motor will hold together.

I think I'd rather have the reliable one, the one that doesn't break a driveline part at the track almost every run, and the one where the motor will hold together.

Ehh, subjective. Ken hasn't broken certain parts yet. He also hasn't pushed his car to supreme limits. Nothing like sticky tires, sticky track, and lots of power. How much power do you push routinely? Not to say Ken isn't putting his power down effectively, he just does not drag, and knows how to keep the car maintained tip top shape with his driving.

Saad has to completely push his car to the limits. Plus it weighs a TON. If Saad would somehow lighten the car, he would stop breaking axles. But I think in the end, some custom axles will solve his problem, and you will see a 3800 lb. racer in the mid to low 8's pretty routinely. Every racer has problems. See that Badass Camaro video where he blows out the spark and goes super rich on the shift, etc. He had maybe one decent pass in 20-25 attempts. Pretty crazy when you push that much power.

So, in the end, we can all assume and bicker and what not, but lets realize it is not easy to keep pushing so much power.

I think the reason Ryan Woon doesn't break parts is his driving style. He even says he could pull 0.1-0.3 off his time with different techniques. Maybe powershifting, maybe launching harder (maybe it would shred the driveline too). But powershifting will definitely hurt the trans at his level and with the shock of the sticky tires, etc.

Ehh, subjective. Ken hasn't broken certain parts yet. He also hasn't pushed his car to supreme limits. Nothing like sticky tires, sticky track, and lots of power. How much power do you push routinely? Not to say Ken isn't putting his power down effectively, he just does not drag, and knows how to keep the car maintained tip top shape with his driving.

Saad has to completely push his car to the limits. Plus it weighs a TON. If Saad would somehow lighten the car, he would stop breaking axles. But I think in the end, some custom axles will solve his problem, and you will see a 3800 lb. racer in the mid to low 8's pretty routinely. Every racer has problems. See that Badass Camaro video where he blows out the spark and goes super rich on the shift, etc. He had maybe one decent pass in 20-25 attempts. Pretty crazy when you push that much power.

So, in the end, we can all assume and bicker and what not, but lets realize it is not easy to keep pushing so much power.

I think the reason Ryan Woon doesn't break parts is his driving style. He even says he could pull 0.1-0.3 off his time with different techniques. Maybe powershifting, maybe launching harder (maybe it would shred the driveline too). But powershifting will definitely hurt the trans at his level and with the shock of the sticky tires, etc.


I realize that, and the fact that he goes out and pushes his car and parts is bad ass. But for me personally I'd just rather something that I can enjoy driving, thats as reliable as a 1K+whp car can be.

ok, i understand the point made and it seems valid, but what exactly are trying to argue? or is this just a statement about powerbands that most people already knew?


Thats called a straw man argument and it's considered to be invalid, although valid points are made, the argument is not. <---pointless post

I'm sure Kens car is nice...I'm sure Ken is a nice guy....doesn't change the fact that the "same" isn't the "same". If anyone needs "skin" it's you guys, you think everything is about downplaying someones "accomplishments". I just call it like it is.


Post up saads sheet......lets look that over.

I think I'd rather have the reliable one, the one that doesn't break a driveline part at the track almost every run, and the one where the motor will hold together.

I guarantee Saads engine is more reliable than Kens... as for breaking parts at the track...well....you'll never know becuase Ken doesn't race his car.

Here is Ken's Dyno sheet

http://www.sp-power.com/images/photogallery/KEN%20H/SILV%201110.jpg

Another comparison.....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/greengoblin90/hugedyno.jpg

What the hell is this ben traynor?

Novi 2000? As in Paxton Novi 2000 supercharged? More info please.

And by the looks of things, Saad has Ken beat in the overall HP curve dept.

But, I think Ken is not at maximum boost and has more room to play. IMHO.

I guarantee Saads engine is more reliable than Kens... as for breaking parts at the track...well....you'll never know becuase Ken doesn't race his car.

How could you guarentee that?

How could you guarentee that?

Quite easily!

Quite easily!


Well then, show us. Hard proof though, not your speculations. I think it'll be quite a bit harder than you think.

Well then, show us. Hard proof though, not your speculations. I think it'll be quite a bit harder than you think.

You wouldn't understand if I explained it to you... There are alot of things we have learned in making power RELIABLY on the 2J, and they are ALL implemented on his motor...things the Pro guys aren't even doing yet. I don't have to speculate, nor prove anything....just get your buddy go go make 100+ dyno pulls at well over 1100 horsepower, and make 50 or 60 passes down the track...pull the bottom end down to check it out...then re-use the bearings as all is well!

You wouldn't understand if I explained it to you... There are alot of things we have learned in making power RELIABLY on the 2J, and they are ALL implemented on his motor...things the Pro guys aren't even doing yet. I don't have to speculate, nor prove anything....just get your buddy go go make 100+ dyno pulls at well over 1100 horsepower, and make 50 or 60 passes down the track...pull the bottom end down to check it out...then re-use the bearings as all is well!

I beg to differ, I'll understand just fine. I'm no expert, but I do know plenty. The way it works is, you make a claim, in order for your claim to be valid you must prove it. Ken isn't my buddy, I don't know him, I've never talked to him, online or in person, I'm sure I couldn't pick his car out of a line up, but thats not the point.

So lets hear the proof of how much more reliable this motor is than a 2J with an off the shelf stroker kit from HKS.

Kens car simply put would have made over 1000hp carried out over 3300rpms if he raised his redline to 9500 at the time he wasn't sure if he could. Now he knows he can but has zero to prove.
Why would a guy want to prove something by dynoing the same level a 100 times , sound a little moronic to me.
I'm quite sure Kens car run on the edge could have the same powerband.
Guaranteed!

I beg to differ, I'll understand just fine. I'm no expert, but I do know plenty. The way it works is, you make a claim, in order for your claim to be valid you must prove it. Ken isn't my buddy, I don't know him, I've never talked to him, online or in person, I'm sure I couldn't pick his car out of a line up, but thats not the point.

So lets hear the proof of how much more reliable this motor is than a 2J with an off the shelf stroker kit from HKS.

No...you wouldn't....and that isn't the way it works...the way it works is...don't believe it...fine...I really don't care. My statement has been backed up 100's of times.

Kens car simply put would have made over 1000hp carried out over 3300rpms if he raised his redline to 9500 at the time he wasn't sure if he could. Now he knows he can but has zero to prove.
Why would a guy want to prove something by dynoing the same level a 100 times , sound a little moronic to me.
I'm quite sure Kens car run on the edge could have the same powerband.
Guaranteed!

I guarantee it wouldn't! Dynoing at the same level a 100 times??? Who ever said it was at the same level? I just said over 1100 hp!

No...you wouldn't....and that isn't the way it works...the way it works is...don't believe it...fine...I really don't care. My statement has been backed up 100's of times.

According to every argument/debate/philosophy class I've ever taken, yes it is the way it works, but I'm sure not in the mind of an egocentric/arrogant person like you.

Plus, what most people have seen of this bullet proof 2J of yours is a blown HG on a dyno in las vegas, broken parts on the track, all backed by a lot of shit talking by you with little to none follow through. Yes I realize I haven't built any 1K+ whp cars, I have worked on them though, and know a good amount about them, so I think I would understand the explaination of your guarentee.

I guarantee it wouldn't! Dynoing at the same level a 100 times??? Who ever said it was at the same level? I just said over 1100 hp!

Man, you could take a grapefruit and squeeze it into lemonade.

Too bad (seriously) you find criticism in everyones accomplishments. I hope you really know its an insecurity issue. All the good things you've done simply get washed away with your ability to find fault. Nothing wrong with being humble, you know, let your accomplishments speak for themselves instead of be-littling others.

Happy New Year.......

I guess you feel a need stir the pot even when it needs no stirring. :bonk:

According to every argument/debate/philosophy class I've ever taken, yes it is the way it works, but I'm sure not in the mind of an egocentric/arrogant person like you.

Plus, what most people have seen of this bullet proof 2J of yours is a blown HG on a dyno in las vegas, broken parts on the track, all backed by a lot of shit talking by you with little to none follow through. Yes I realize I haven't built any 1K+ whp cars, I have worked on them though, and know a good amount about them, so I think I would understand the explaination of your guarentee.


This isn't philosophy or debate, this is People spending thousands of dollars of their own money to develope something...why should it be given away to some squid? You only see what you think you see. Saad didn't blow a head gasket...his problem was much further beyond that...again... it's something that we ran into in the 1500rwhp range...and it won't be disclosed here for the above mentioned reasons.

Man, you could take a grapefruit and squeeze it into lemonade.

Too bad (seriously) you find criticism in everyones accomplishments. I hope you really know its an insecurity issue. All the good things you've done simply get washed away with your ability to find fault. Nothing wrong with being humble, you know, let your accomplishments speak for themselves instead of be-littling others.

Happy New Year.......

I guess you feel a need stir the pot even when it needs no stirring. :bonk:

Where exactly did I "criticize" anyone? I simply pointed out the obvious, and the dyno charts were even posted to back it up. All I stated was that two cars making 1100hp aren't the same unless the dyno curves lay on top of one another...clearly that isn't the case.....not by a longshot.

Let me start off by saying that Ken has a very nice car. That being said, lets address the main point that Jason was trying to make, area under the curve. If you look at Kens dyno sheet you will see that at 5500 rpms he is making 600hp, look at mine and you will see the same hp number. But at 6000 rpm he is making 740hp I am at 900hp. My dyno was smooth and sustained, his was choppy and peaky. Qiute frankly, if I had a dyno like that I would have been upset at the tuner and telling him to fix the damn problem(Jason).

What happened with my car on the dyno this last Vegas meet was a result of me racing the night before. I was tired and made a stupid mistake. Simply the car did not have enough fuel in the tank. When I accelerated it starved the pump and it detonated enough to pull a head stud out of the block. Now understand that I knew this before I put the car on the dyno and I knew what it would do on the dyno. But I still did it because that is what I came to do and I still made the most power on just boost.

When I got back home I Heliacoiled that stud hole and put the head back on. It ran perfect, there was no other damage. Now if that does not tell you how strong the engine is I do not know what will. And if there is any doubt as to what I am saying you can as Larry from SP, he was there the whole time with us.

This isn't philosophy or debate, this is People spending thousands of dollars of their own money to develope something...why should it be given away to some squid? You only see what you think you see. Saad didn't blow a head gasket...his problem was much further beyond that...again... it's something that we ran into in the 1500rwhp range...and it won't be disclosed here for the above mentioned reasons.

I'm not asking for anything but for you to prove your guarantee about the reliablility of Saads car over Kens, I'm not asking for your secrets. Whats learned in the classroom is applied in real life, not something that stays in the classroom, I realize your too high on your horse to realize something like this but thats ok.
BTW, didn't you guys 'only' make 1100 something whp at vegas (which I've seen at just over 30psi on a 2J that has had by now hundreds of runs on it)? I don't remember hearing anything of 1500whp from the car in vegas. And you also didn't provide any reasons, other than some smart ass question where you think you have room to talk down to anyone. I just love how you think you're doing more advanced work than the pro guys. I guess it depends on your definition of pro.

Where exactly did I "criticize" anyone? I simply pointed out the obvious, and the dyno charts were even posted to back it up. All I stated was that two cars making 1100hp aren't the same unless the dyno curves lay on top of one another...clearly that isn't the case.....not by a longshot.


And that is not a disputed fact, you're just stirring the pot. Trying to start shit up because all you can do is talk shit to the people who actually do something and set records (Speaking of your car, not someone elses that you worked on)

Let me start off by saying that Ken has a very nice car. That being said, lets address the main point that Jason was trying to make, area under the curve. If you look at Kens dyno sheet you will see that at 5500 rpms he is making 600hp, look at mine and you will see the same hp number. But at 6000 rpm he is making 740hp I am at 900hp. My dyno was smooth and sustained, his was choppy and peaky. Qiute frankly, if I had a dyno like that I would have been upset at the tuner and telling him to fix the damn problem(Jason).

What happened with my car on the dyno this last Vegas meet was a result of me racing the night before. I was tired and made a stupid mistake. Simply the car did not have enough fuel in the tank. When I accelerated it starved the pump and it detonated enough to pull a head stud out of the block. Now understand that I knew this before I put the car on the dyno and I knew what it would do on the dyno. But I still did it because that is what I came to do and I still made the most power on just boost.

When I got back home I Heliacoiled that stud hole and put the head back on. It ran perfect, there was no other damage. Now if that does not tell you how strong the engine is I do not know what will. And if there is any doubt as to what I am saying you can as Larry from SP, he was there the whole time with us.

Nismo241 ....why don't you read this post...again...

I know what the pro guys are doing, and what we are doing (really one in the same as I work with the pro guys). What it is will "stay in the class room" it isn't going to be given to anyone... If you had ANY clue...you would be asking how....exactly did Saad have this problem...yet not hurt anything... This problem on ANY other 2J would have torched the cylinder head... he made 2 full dyno pulls and one pass down the track AFTER this problem... fixed the threads, and put all the parts back on with no damage to ANYTHING! These are things that ONLY we are doing...not even the "Pro guys" are doing this.

BTW...the pulls on the dyno in Vegas were all at low boost just to see if the car could make passes down the track. It had nothing to do putting down big numbers. We know where the car makes 1100hp, and what the car would run at that power level... all we were trying to accomplish was to see if we could make passes safely, rather than wasting a trip.

while i see what the point of this thread was...i just think it could've been done without mentioning names. just my .02 cents on this.

Nismo241 ....why don't you read this post...again...

I know what the pro guys are doing, and what we are doing (really one in the same as I work with the pro guys). What it is will "stay in the class room" it isn't going to be given to anyone... If you had ANY clue...you would be asking how....exactly did Saad have this problem...yet not hurt anything... This problem on ANY other 2J would have torched the cylinder head... he made 2 full dyno pulls and one pass down the track AFTER this problem... fixed the threads, and put all the parts back on with no damage to ANYTHING! These are things that ONLY we are doing...not even the "Pro guys" are doing this.

BTW...the pulls on the dyno in Vegas were all at low boost just to see if the car could make passes down the track. It had nothing to do putting down big numbers. We know where the car makes 1100hp, and what the car would run at that power level... all we were trying to accomplish was to see if we could make passes safely, rather than wasting a trip.

I don't want to know any of that, I don't care, I don't plan on building a 2J anytime soon.

Let me start off by saying that Ken has a very nice car. That being said, lets address the main point that Jason was trying to make, area under the curve. If you look at Kens dyno sheet you will see that at 5500 rpms he is making 600hp, look at mine and you will see the same hp number. But at 6000 rpm he is making 740hp I am at 900hp. My dyno was smooth and sustained, his was choppy and peaky. Qiute frankly, if I had a dyno like that I would have been upset at the tuner and telling him to fix the damn problem(Jason).

What happened with my car on the dyno this last Vegas meet was a result of me racing the night before. I was tired and made a stupid mistake. Simply the car did not have enough fuel in the tank. When I accelerated it starved the pump and it detonated enough to pull a head stud out of the block. Now understand that I knew this before I put the car on the dyno and I knew what it would do on the dyno. But I still did it because that is what I came to do and I still made the most power on just boost.

When I got back home I Heliacoiled that stud hole and put the head back on. It ran perfect, there was no other damage. Now if that does not tell you how strong the engine is I do not know what will. And if there is any doubt as to what I am saying you can as Larry from SP, he was there the whole time with us.



I told you not to run it on 87 octane...... you wouldn't listen to me!!

I told you not to run it on 87 octane...... you wouldn't listen to me!!

Larry, you are suppose to keep that stuff to yourself!

Where exactly did I "criticize" anyone? I simply pointed out the obvious, and the dyno charts were even posted to back it up. All I stated was that two cars making 1100hp aren't the same unless the dyno curves lay on top of one another...clearly that isn't the case.....not by a longshot.

"I was told about a post, that literally made me fall out of my chair laughing so hard. Apparently on SF, Ken H stated that he made the same power with his 3.4stroker that Saad made with his 3.0 liter on the dyno in vegas, year before last." 1BADAPPLE

This my friend is criticism.....anyway you try twisting it. :eusa_liar
There are alot of ways to broach this subject without be-littling someone.
Good for you, you guys have the BEST dyno curve EVER.

...when its applied to the tarmac get back with us please.